US liberals: Norway is so progressive! see, that's how to do socialism! 😍
Norway: 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ sorry what was that 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ couldn't hear you 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ over this mountain of oil money 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️ 🛢️
the Scandinavian model of socialism is just "pay for it with oil money" and liberals do not want to hear this
anyways if you're looking for good models of socialism I recommend: Havana, Cuba, the indigenous led Zapatista movement of central Mexico, and Venezuela, among others. fuck right off with your DSA Sweden caucus
if I hear a liberal utter "Scandinavian socialism" one more time
isn't it fun and cool how modern European soft colonialism and neoliberal imperialism via corporate and even just straight up national exploitation of the mineral wealth of the rest of the world is lauded by the American "left" as the only good example of socialism?
globalism is good in that the Fuji apple is a thing that exists now, but like, neocolonialism is not good
i made this thread into a butterfly meme
@starwall the European model of socialism is universally to do it with stolen wealth, oil money or otherwise
@marie_joseph this should be tattooed on every European's ass
@starwall and it's also often what I've taken to calling RN socialism. Socialism for people who look like, sound like, and agree with the people putting it in place.
@starwall iirc it also has a lot to do with homogeneity, as soon as immigration from non-whites began picking up, the “socialist” programs started seeing more opposition so uh double yikes
@starwall well Norway at least, Sweden and Denmark do tax the shit out of people too. but also, don't miss out the fact that being left alone to have such stable economies, within the western markets, is inherently only able to exist BECAUSE they are within the system of imperialism. imperialism IS what lets Norway just sit there and export nationalised oil with no extra-national fuckery unlike say Iran where literally a coup against their elected government was taken out because British oil interests int he country were compromised
@CornishRepublicanArmy It's sort of similar to how Babylon survived during the early period of Sumerian Civilization and threats from the northern steppes. In the sense that Norwegians prolly haven't always sensed how lucky they are straddled between so many western Imperialist powers part of their succes is being seen as a buffer state. But I'm not trying to oversimplify the history of the ancient near east or Norway. Who would do that here. @starwall
@starwall yikes I did Not know this
@Cyborgneticz Norway pays for its pensions with oil money and everybody needs to know this, and in 2017 the Norwegian pension fund surpassed 1 trillion dollars
@starwall That's so wild. I can't believe that they have been so successful in branding that I never heard of this
@Cyborgneticz is it bad that Norwegians have pensions and heavily subsidized electric cars? no. is it bad knowing it was all done with oil revenues? maybe, but it certainly looks a whole lot less "good socialism" and more like "small and wealthy European nation's resource glut funds some decent social programs"
@starwall I am scandinavian, and my reaction to that phrase is also, what the fuck is wrong with you? Sure, it is better than laissez faire madness, but it ain't socialism, and it ain't good.
@Artemis THANK YOU. god fucking damn. every dense fucker in my city's DSA chapter needs to hear some WORDS from you
@starwall I am on a regional board for Sweden's largest socialist youth group, so, I am sure I could hold a lecture or two about it if you set me up with a platform...
@Artemis I just might take you up on that offer. It helps to clear up misconceptions some of these Americans have about you guys
@starwall I mean, no better time than corona time for online lectures from people you could never get to come irl.
@starwall Well, put my name down on a paper somewhere and throw me a dm if you need me, I am available.
@starwall you ask for words and I'm up for that
@starwall I must ask: don't liberals use Sweden not Norway as the socialism poster child? And AFAIK Sweden didn't do anything like this $1T oil fund
@waterbear specifically with reference to at least one instance I've seen of some elonbro liberal using Norway as an example. something about electric car subsidies
@waterbear Sweden has its own problems though
@starwall oh for sure
@starwall it's somehow more upsetting to hear honest to god (American) socialists go on about it as if the "Scandinavian model of socialism" was a real thing
what the SAC (Swedish AnSyn union) are trying to do, for example, now *that* is Scandinavian socialism lol
@starwall hi im icelandic
@starwall ew oh god oh fuck please tell me that DSA Sweden caucus is not a real thing
@JohnBrownJr i made it up on the spot so if it IS real then, well. let's just hope it's not, ok?
@starwall to be fair, Venezuela may not be a great counter-example to socialism based on oil revenue.... 😳
@NormalPopsicle Swedish oil company Nynas's majority share in Venezuela's state owned oil company only ceased being a thing (checks notes) two months ago because they're trying to pressure and thereby overthrow Venezuela's socialist government
@NormalPopsicle but yeah sure this is all to blame on Venezuela ok
@starwall fwiw all I said was Venezuela has an oil-based economy too, didn't say they were necessarily entirely at fault for *gestures around*
@starwall You'd think Greta would have pierced the myth with a mortal wound (even without the oil production, pointing to the supply chain for the products Swedish people use, and the way Swedes engage in international travel), but in the US and Canada, I think most liberals would still be just fine with having a low domestic carbon footprint and just export the burning of fossil fuels to somewhere outside our borders.
"At least it's better than what what we are doing now, eh?"
@starwall "Sweden does not have any own significance oil resources, and consequently Sweden is dependent on oil imports. At the moment, the Swedish oil import arrives from a few actors with a majority from the North Sea region" — Uppsala University
Please try again without conflating an entire region with its most populous and least progressive country
@kathyvanrijswijk my entire point is that these countries are not, in fact, progressive. and those policies that ARE held up as progressive by dense american liberals are often funded by Norway's oil wealth. Even Bernie Sanders is pointing at "the Scandinavian model" with praise and it's completely without context or understanding
@starwall you're not addressing the conflation. Norway may use the model but other countries do so too with an entirely different context. Most importantly Finland which spent most of its recorded history being the victim of Swedish, Russian, and later stalinist expansionism, making it impossible for them to be anywhere near the level of imperialism and historical baggage of Ikealand or Norway
@kathyvanrijswijk What im specifically tired of isn't primarily concerned at all with the specific policies of various northern European countries, because the discussion here in the states among the "left" is not exactly taking place with that nuance. even Bernie will say 'Look at Scandinavia! A beacon of progress and freedom!' and then broadly gesture in the direction of the Baltic sea, as if this is meant to be a real, honest praise of democratic socialism. They're the ones conflating your region and misunderstanding the current and historical setting, and while the conflating gets me angry, what gets me more pissed off is that this undeserved, unilateral praise that northern Europe gets because of x country subsidizing electric cars. Many of these countries don't even have even center-left governments! And while all of them don't have the same *level* of historical baggage, I agree, I'm not the one who needs to hear it
@starwall would federal revenue from alaska drilling produce as much per capita wealth?
if i had guessed, it would be because the profit would be mostly private and the risk would be mostly public
looking into it now :-D
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