talking about building a better world with european liberals can be worse than with north american ones.

@olivia so i hear

which is "impressive", given how that tends to go with some folks here

@poiseunderchaos it's just that most well meaning europeans have absolutely no idea about life outside of europe. or about where the stuff they buy come from.

@olivia anything to avoid a colonialist past, i suppose. past, or...well. *changes subject*

@poiseunderchaos exactly. they think it's all forgotten and forgiven by now.

@olivia which is what people in north america (white people especially) think as well, well-intentioned or not

@poiseunderchaos i guess the main difference is that in north america you still have a sort of poverty that the rich are forced to live next to. in europe the middle class is most people and most 'poor' would be middle class anywhere else.

@olivia or step over, as the case may be

the aspiration of middle class stability has always been racially coded, even when it was more widely accessible. when that started to erode, rather than changing their values, the middle class norm became nimbyism and "tax reform" (dismantling the safety net to give property owners a tax break).

@poiseunderchaos and think everyone should have access to the goods and tech they have access to. but they don't realize the only reason they have all that is because most people in the world don't. otherwise we'd have run out of world a long time ago.

@olivia or even if that's possible to whichever degree, it's not possible given how things are at present

@poiseunderchaos they'd have to have a lot less STUFF. but they are hard working good people, so they deserve what they have!

@poiseunderchaos that's the hard thing to talk about, in the end. we (and i include myself here as brazilian middle class, even if i would be considered poor by west european standards) only get to have all this stuff because the majority of people in the world are poorer, stuck in that poverty (regardless of whether they are 'well fed' or not), and hence have no access whatsoever to these goods we treasure so much.

@olivia *nods* definitely. if they're not making said goods in labor-exploitative, frequently hazardous conditions on top of that

@poiseunderchaos that's how they are all usually made anyway. otherwise they are indeed too expensive and not even attainable by this well meaning european middle class.

@poiseunderchaos labor in a capitalist system is necessarily exploitative. that's where profit comes from ;)

@poiseunderchaos which is another thing white collar well meaning european liberals don't realize for some reason.

@poiseunderchaos well, white collars around the globe i guess hahaha

@olivia 😂 yes

where i live, any number of things are tied to the boom and bust tech economy. so everything hyper-inflates, people get displaced, have and have-not disparities become more stark -- then it all falls apart, rents drop, and things semi-stabilize.

except for the "there's no jobs" part, as well as "if someone managed to own a house, well, kiss that goodbye" so it ends up in foreclosure

then gets auctioned off to speculators, or sold back to the bank

@poiseunderchaos and enters the neoliberal ideology that assures you it's all your own doing and your own fault.

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